The founder of Wargaming told Vedomosti about the crisis and the future of esports. Victor Kisly about the future World of Tanks Victor Kisly wargaming biography
Viktor Kisly. Screenshot from video interview Pro business
What happens to the company when the number of employees becomes more than 2.5 thousand. Why an optimistic leader needs people in the team who know how to “ruin the party”. How will Wargaming develop in the future. What will the new Decree on HTP give to Belarus. What books should every leader read? About this and much more - in our big Skype interview with the founder and CEO of Wargaming, the developer of the legendary computer game. World games of Tanks, Viktor Kisly. We publish the most interesting quotes and full video version our conversation.
On Entrepreneurship and the Task of an Entrepreneur
Entrepreneurship for me is to create something big and bright that people need. It could be a product or a service. It should be beautiful, comfortable, bring obvious benefits. We are in entertainment and in our case computer game should be beautiful, exciting and should develop some skills - in the case of World of Tanks, we are talking about teamwork on the battlefield, the ability to think strategically, and cooperate.
At the same time, any big business requires a lot of people to create this value, to provide it to the consumer, buyer, client. And the main task for a leader, an entrepreneur, in addition to conceiving an idea, thinking over its details, is to organize a certain number of people. Sometimes it is measured in tens, sometimes hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, or, as in the case of Walmart, millions (according to data for 2016, the number of employees of the Walmart retail chain was 2.3 million people - approx. "About business").
About the difficulties of growth
You need to get used to working hard, and when success comes, starts to come, you make a choice for yourself: is this enough, is it possible to stop here, somehow fixate, or go further? In my case, after the first successes of World of Tanks, I said to myself, and my colleagues supported me in many ways: why stop? Let's move on - the world is big!
Today we have about 4.5 thousand people in the company. However, they are scattered geographically. Our offices operate in Sydney, Singapore, Tokyo, Seoul, Kyiv, Minsk, Moscow, St. Petersburg, Nicosia, Paris, Helsinki, Prague, San Francisco, Texas, Austin, Chicago, Seattle. All these are different cultures, different laws. And here, completely different principles of management are already required.
Our chief strategy officer, Chief Strategy Officer, Matthew Haradon. We invited him from the New York Times, one of the largest and most successful newspapers not only in America but also in the world. In addition, Matthew also teaches at the university, he has seen many different companies in his lifetime. So he says the following: while the company has not yet grown to 2.5 thousand employees, you can manage it based on personal charisma, family or startup values, and be constantly aware of what is happening in different departments. If the company has 100-150 people, then you can manage it to its full potential.
But as the number of people grows and exceeds 2.5 thousand, it will not be possible to successfully move further on one charisma. Other management principles are required.
Yes, probably, this concept of “corporate governance” has already set the teeth on edge, but without it at some stage there is no way.
I'm talking about the board of directors, the management team of top managers who are responsible for very large areas, but they themselves do nothing with their hands. Below them are people, if the company is large, who also don’t do anything “with their hands”, but are responsible for the directions, a little less within the framework of some large direction. And maybe already at the third, at the fourth level - people who do something with their hands.
That's how Walmart is run, that's how Apple is run, that's how Google is run - I met with Eric Schmidt (Chairman and former CEO of Google, also a former Apple board member - approx. "About business"), we talked with him about these issues. We read books, go to conferences, go to Stanford - the conclusion is: unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, this corporate level of management cannot be avoided.
On the leader's dilemma
There is always a dilemma: how much you, as a manager, as a leader, want and can go into details and advise something. On the one hand, the people you manage don't like you to interfere. They say - I'm exaggerating, but something like this conversation turns out: “Well, wait, buddy, you just gave me a direction. Do you trust me? Let me do it. trust me. I will do everything in at its best. If there are problems, I'll ask you, but leave it to me, don't go to my people, don't tell them what to do. You undermine my authority as a leader." Here it is on one side.
And on the other hand, you still need to find mechanisms where things that are critical for the company, in which it is easy to make a mistake, are somehow checked or agreed upon. Mistakes in the gaming industry are, unfortunately, expensive and very painful. And the task of a leader today is to balance very competently between delegation and mentoring, a certain cooperation in order to minimize the risk of mistakes.
About the features of a multinational team
The growth of Wargaming was really very fast, just instantaneous. In just a couple of years, we have grown from five hundred people to three or four thousand.
Plus, our team is very diverse, multinational. In the main governing body of Wargaming there is a Finn, a Korean, a Greek, a couple of Russians, Belarusians, a German, a British, Americans - such a cultural cauldron is obtained. And yet so hot! But we need this national, cultural diversity. Because we manufacture and distribute our products, games, literally all over the world. And different people bring to the team knowledge of different territories where our customers and our developers are located.
For the leader, this means more communication. It's an ongoing team effort. Imagine, for example, that I, as CEO, write my strategy and “pump out” it. And the people in the team will say: “Wait, you didn’t consult with us. Here it won’t work at all…” Therefore, you should not be lazy to communicate with people, discuss strategy, important points. Moreover, each conversation should be specific, you need to look at the numbers, at the graphs, understand in each case (it is clear that to some extent) the subject of the conversation.
Why companies need pessimists
The first month of World of Tanks' success on the Russian market was a period of certain euphoria. But, fortunately, in our company, among my associates, in addition to such “shirt-guys”, “hooray, we will tear everyone”, like me, there were conditional pessimists or, as they call themselves, realists. These people, who, despite the general joy, always “spoil the party” a little with phrases like: “Wait, wait, well, what if suddenly it’s just a surge due to novelty? Wait, okay, Russia is good, but what if it doesn't work in the West? Wait, and if the fashion for “tanks” ends soon, what will we continue to show people, sell?”. There must be such people.
The leader himself does not need to be a pessimist, the leader must shine with optimism in front of his employees.
Because people want to see success not only now, but also in the future. But having a couple of such pessimists in your team is necessary for the team to be balanced. Fortunately, there are enough pessimists!
You need to listen to them, see the signals, risks and calculate a possible plan B and plan C in case something goes wrong. In war as in war: battles do not always go according to a bravura plan, sometimes you have to prepare alternate airfields, retreat a little, regroup, maneuver. Over the years at Wargaming, we've seen a lot of stuff and put Plan B and Plan C into action.
Can a company stay "forever young"
There is no law about company decline if you do it right. A company is what you make of your company. That is, I believe that there is no such universal force that would lead the company from youth to withering. If you are a CEO, a member of the board of directors, you and your team are the universal force that moves the company left, right, up, down, to America, to Russia, to China, etc.
Yes, when success comes, there is a certain euphoria, the temptation to sit in big leather chairs, smoke an expensive cigar and drink martinis. Naturally, this is a road to nowhere. Well, just don't do it! Be in the saddle, be on a horse with a saber.
Know what is happening, keep the team, if necessary - update it, follow the market trends, talk to employees, talk to consumers. For example, I very often meet with players, with video bloggers who have millions of audiences. If you watch video blogs, read the press, collect information from players, conduct surveys, then your consumers will tell you where your company is going, sometimes better than, for example, your CFO.
About Decree on HTP 2.0
As part of our membership in the Hi-Tech Park, Game Stream was asked by Mr. Yanchevsky, Head of the Park, to submit their proposals [on the development of IT in Belarus]. And our specially trained people, lawyers, people who understand how it all works, sent their proposals. These are quite obvious, simple and understandable things, but framed in legal language.
I believe that if the Decree is adopted in the form that is being discussed now, it will be a colossal, simply fundamental step forward.
How business can develop the ecosystem in Belarus
I think that, first of all, by creating incubators. I remember how I myself started a business in the bedroom 20 years ago ... Entrepreneurial initiative very often comes from young people, students who, by definition, do not have an extra million in their pocket. Therefore, incubators - infrastructure in the form of premises, computers, the Internet, some kind of financial assistance - this is important. And, of course, incubators should have mentoring, conferences, training, and a library. That is, all these things are accumulated in one place, and in terms of one participant it turns out cheap and cheerful, while, as world practice shows, such incubators can grow businesses that become billions.
About books that entrepreneurs and top managers should read
There is such an author Patrick Lencioni - it's just a bomb! He has a series of books, I read them in English. The first is called The Five Temptations of a CEO, the second is The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, and the third is The Four Obsessions of an Extraordinary Executive. ("The Four Manias of Extraordinary Executives").
These are the books everyone should read. This is about what a leader, CEO, CEO should actually do. My only regret is that I didn't manage to do everything that is written there. Partially done, but something did not "squeeze". And for many problems that we, like any company, have - I can see where their legs grow from. From the fact that I did not follow Lencioni's advice in due time.
Patrick Lencioni. Photo: thesweeneyagency.com And two more books that I think are definitely worth reading are Funky Business by Kjell Nordström and Jonas Ridderstrale, this book is becoming more relevant with time, and From Good to Great by Jim Collins.
About the future of Wargaming
It's really simple - we make games, online, shareware, free-to-play, and we have to turn these games into a hobby for people and for ourselves. I myself play computer games an average of seven hours a week ... To create a hobby, you need to be a very pumped company. These are ideas, this is creativity, this is art, these are experiments, and plus this is a very heavy mass production, so that all this beauty is on the market.
We are currently working hard on updating the graphics of World of Tanks. I recommend to everyone who played before and has already abandoned a little, follow our news. It's already Hollywood!
And people need Hollywood, people like to go and watch, for example, cool films by James Cameron. True, they have production budgets of half a billion dollars, a billion. But we are slowly getting closer to it. The account [investments in the production of games] goes to tens of millions. And all this just needs to be done well. There is no magic recipe or slogan here. Our current games demonstrate this. Look, World of Tanks is already more than seven years old, but the game has not been living on its own all this time. We are already approaching the mark of one hundred updates.
And each update is essentially a separate such mini-game with improved graphics somewhere, physics somewhere, new tanks, new maps, new Game Mode, something is “balanced” there, the interface has been corrected, etc. In addition to all this, localization, taking into account national characteristics in the same Korea, in the same China.
If you watch videos from seven years ago, then there the game looks like some kind of kindergarten craft. When you look at what we're working on right now, it almost feels like you're playing inside a movie.
And so we must learn how to update the cellular composition of the games that have already been launched well. Do it on stream.
And to think about new products - this world does not live by "tanks" alone. For this, we have created an R&D division. We want Wargaming to release, say, a hit product once a year.
Wishing young entrepreneurs
Dare and create! Of course, everyone chooses for himself what to do in life. You can unlearn somewhere, find a job from 9 am to 6 pm and, in principle, be a happy person, there is nothing shameful in this. But entrepreneurs, people to whom I consider myself and my team - we are not in this business.
We get up in the morning, drink the first cup of coffee, run to the gym - and right at that moment the brain starts to work: what else to do, how to improve, how to expand, where to read something else or gather a team and "brainstorm".
An entrepreneur is a person with an inquisitive mind.
An inquisitive mind is good. He develops with chess, physics, mathematics, playing Civilization - by the way, I recommend everyone to play Civilization.
It is important to train your brain, load it with complex mental activity, and be inquisitive. Well, use your mind for the benefit of yourself, your friends and relatives, colleagues and, as a result, for the benefit of all mankind.
Watch the full video of the interview
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Belarusian and Cypriot resident Viktor Kisly has been running the Wargaming company for 17 years, which managed to create one of the most popular multiplayer games in Russia and the former USSR - World of Tanks. Recently Vedomosti is with him.
WoT is always rapidly gaining users, and they are actively paying for items inside the game. In 2012, World of Tanks brought Wargaming $218 million, and last year its revenue more than doubled: according to Superdata, the company earned more than $500 million from tanks. started paying less. Wargaming plans to compensate for the decline in revenues with growth in international markets, new projects and the promotion of the game in eSports competitions (computer game competitions), which, according to Kisly, could develop into new media reality.
– Before the crisis, the main market for you was Russia and the CIS countries, and now?
- The structure of our players has not changed much. We all understand that the tank is “sewn up” in the DNA of a Russian person (laughs) and nothing can be done about it. Residents of the former Soviet Union play tanks a lot and do not do it less. Americans are more spoiled, they need everything to be beautiful, they need to show everything. They play on consoles more, and we only launched World of Tanks on consoles a year ago, and even then old version. Now we are doing new version for Xbox One, and then, probably, there will be some increase in the number of users in the US.
For example, there are few computers in Japan, the Japanese play mainly on the Play Station. But if the Japanese fell in love with some game, then he will not get out of it. And this is the most paying audience. But in terms of numbers, they are few compared to other countries.
It is clear that we started with a ratio of 0:100. That is, mother Russia, the CIS. True, in the first week closed testing Poles and Czechs began to actively join - they also love tanks very much. Icelanders for some reason play a lot, Scandinavians in general.
We have been making efforts to spread our game to the world. To do this, we localized World of Tanks, brought support in different languages.
Now we have a game audience distributed approximately 50:50. Half is Russia and the countries of the former USSR, the other half is the rest of the world. That is, the dynamics is still in the direction of increasing the international audience, which is logical - after all, the population of the whole world is larger than the former USSR. Although the density of "tankers" is less, but the population and territory are larger (laughs).
We are systematically working to improve our understanding of the same America, Europe, Korea. There are several uncovered spots, for example, Brazil, we started working there quite recently. We do not cover Middle East countries yet. There is a peculiarity there: the Arabic script is written from right to left, which means that we actually need to “mirror” the entire game.
– With such a significant share of Russian World players of Tanks Has the crisis in Russia affected Wargaming's business? Have people started paying less for artifacts in the game? During the crisis of 2008–2009 many game companies saw an influx of players: people stopped going to the movies, flying on vacation, but they didn’t play less.
– Of course, Russia is a large country that has experienced a geopolitical crisis. It is clear that these movements of the ruble and the euro were not in our favor and led to a decrease in the dollar equivalent of revenue.
Our audience is very diverse. In addition, the game does not force players to pay money. In the game, you can spend money comparable to several movie tickets, and a student can generally play for free.
We have 25% paying users, which is a very good number compared to other games. In the gaming industry, there is a concept of a "whale" - a top-level manager who drives a black Mercedes and whose salary is measured in numbers with a lot of zeros. He doesn't care how much he pays. But World of Tanks is built in such a way that you can't spend $1,000 a month there. I could spend that amount, but I don't know what (laughs). The game is made in such a way that there is no product for such an amount per month. $10 is a premium account plus a couple of tens, well, a hundred dollars for collectible tanks ($5-40) or local currency.
So these "whales" do not feel the difference - to spend a few tens of dollars in the game or a couple of hundred. Therefore, among this audience, we did not notice any changes in payments. Schoolchildren and students, of course, began to pay less - it is clear that the purchasing power has fallen.
Games love silence
– Superdata analysts estimated Wargaming's revenue in 2014 at $505 million. How accurate is this estimate?
- Companies, especially large ones, are not very fond of giving direct assessments of their business. Therefore, I would not like to comment on this assessment.
This is primarily due to competition. We are not alone in this clearing, there are others similar games, there are complete copies. This is a very competitive industry. And if you know how much money competitors have, you can roughly predict their maneuvers. Therefore, it is good if competitors have no idea how flexible you are in your maneuvers.
I can only say that Wargaming's revenue is measured in hundreds of millions of dollars. It is clear that due to the fall Russian ruble our dollar revenue, to put it mildly, did not grow. How much she has not grown is not very important. We all still expect that the situation will improve, peace will come and everything will return to its previous course.
But other factors, not necessarily macroeconomic, can also affect revenue. For example, some changes in the game itself. Example: last year we released a new World version of Tanks, in which we made several technical mistakes: the storyboard in the game became slower due to the fact that something was poorly drawn there. The speed dropped by an average of 10%. And we released vague historical battles: what we did did not fully meet the expectations of users. And these two factors immediately affected our results, as the number of concurrent users dropped by 20% in two months. Well, then we entered autumn - and oil prices fell, the ruble fell. There was a fall again.
– A drop in both audience and revenue?
- And so and so. They play but don't pay, they pay but don't play. It got worse, we felt it. It is clear that we have taken some measures. For example, in the case of the ruble, we offered users purchases at a lower rate: people liked it. Therefore, such jumps over the past year have happened to us twice: an unsuccessful technical patch and the economic situation at the end of the year.
– Do you disclose how much one World of Tanks user pays on average, something like ARPU? How much is it in Russia and in the world?
To be honest, I don't know the exact number. It seems to me that it makes no sense to talk about ARPU, since this is the average temperature in the hospital. When the game reaches such dimensions that it already captures countries and continents, it makes no sense to talk about ARPU. In addition, very different age groups play - from seven years and above. I believe that segmentation should be introduced: it is necessary to look separately at the ARPU of a "whale" and a "student", the ARPU of a Russian and a Japanese.
Although our game is built in such a way that there cannot be a large ARPU. I can give an approximate figure - $ 25 per paying person per month, although I could be wrong. But that doesn't mean anything. We have built our game in such a way that a person voluntarily pays as much as he can afford. And this is very important. There are games where you won't go any further without paying. Such games make people make impulsive purchases - especially conveniently done through mobile devices. In our country, even in order to pay, you have to go to some terminal, fill out some form. Moroka in general.
- So you make it difficult for yourself business?
- No, well, it's on computers - it's just such an infrastructure. Smartphones are easier.
The $25 ARPU comes from the premium account and a little bit from the rest. And often it's not because the person can't afford to pay, it's just that they don't consume anymore.
Therefore, in such cheap entertainment as World of Tanks, the percentage of "whales" is very small. Moreover, it is interesting that in Japan there are only “whales”. In Russia, they also exist, but in comparison with the population, their percentage is very small.
Of course, we could immediately make some kind of diamond tank for $10,000. But here such a factor is already included - the people will not understand (laughs). We could afford this only in China. Our Chinese partner just pushed it through: they say, give us a gold tank - we need it for gifts, etc. They did it, it costs $400.
– Golden iPhones are said to be very popular in China…
- Yes. But we must understand that we have an international game. As soon as you introduce something in one country, it starts to be intensively discussed all over the world - on forums, in in social networks. And for this golden tank, which we made at the request of the Chinese workers, our workers told us: "not good." And such conversations spoil our reputation, and this is very important. So we won't do that again.
attack lines
– In addition to the most popular World of Tanks, you now have other games – World of Warplanes, World of Warships. How popular are they?
- With World of Warplanes, we probably hurried, made mistakes in some places. Now we are studying it, trying to fix something. So far, everything seems to be very good with World of Warships. We are now in the closed testing phase: we are using behavioral mechanisms to the fullest to understand whether people like the game and what needs to be changed and where. So far, all the statistical parameters on the closed beta are excellent, and in all regions.
– Last year, Wargaming entered the American market. How successful was this exit? How is Wargaming developing in international markets in general?
- To say that "We took the States", of course, is impossible. This market is very competitive, and not only in games - in all areas. But we got some kind of audience there. These are older men who take children to tank museums, watch the Discovery Channel. The next challenge was to reach a younger audience. But this is already much more difficult: they already need shooters, they like to play on consoles.
In Europe and the US, we still have room to grow. But in Russia there was a saturation of the market. It is probably already impossible to find a man in Russia who has not heard of World of Tanks, except perhaps in the taiga.
– Do you have any ideas that could help you conquer new markets? Do you plan to make, for example, your own shooter?
“I have nothing to say about this yet. Of course, we discuss in the company different variants, different new games. But we don't have a position on shooters yet. Yes, and there is no shooter itself. And since there is no shooter, then there is no position (laughs).
As I said, we are not looking at this average user ARPU. You can make $27.7, but for this you can ruin your reputation. You can earn a lot of money in a short time, but then there will be scorched earth. We have seen such an effect - when you tighten the screws too much, then there is a decline. It is beneficial for us that the revenue is stable or grows slightly. For several years we have determined this socially acceptable figure that a person can get out of his pocket. And we don't want to change it significantly. A business like ours should be done calmly.
What about other product or promotion ideas?
– In general, we act by dynamic analysis: there is some possibility to advance something, we are trying. For example, there is an idea of e-sports, we hold competitions. If successful, then increase. Likewise with advertising. It works differently in different countries. For example, TV advertising for games is considered ineffective. But this is not always the case - in some places it is very effective. For example, the same Clash of Clans advertised during a break between Super Bowl football matches, during the most expensive advertising time. Everyone was very surprised. But they thought it was profitable, and we thought it wasn't. In general, all this is painstaking work. 
As I said, we are not looking at this average user ARPU. You can make $27.7, but for this you can ruin your reputation. You can earn a lot of money in a short time, but then there will be scorched earth. We have seen such an effect - when you tighten the screws too much, then there is a decline. It is beneficial for us that the revenue is stable or grows slightly. For several years we have determined this socially acceptable figure that a person can get out of his pocket. And we don't want to change it significantly. A business like ours should be done calmly.
"Buildings" and "pokatushki"
– In April, you held World of Tanks competitions in Poland. Similar events are held by other game developers. How do you assess the prospects for esports in general? Is it a tool to promote the game or could it become a new big media in the future, competing with, for example, television broadcasts of conventional sports?
– It is impossible to predict the future 5-6 years ahead. But so far eSports is developing very well. In general, esports originated in South Korea with the TV broadcast of Starcraft, and it seemed to everyone that this was such a purely Korean feature and it would not go anywhere further. When we held the final last year, there were half as many people as this year.
Now it has become clear that esports is growing so fast that it can already be assumed that it will soon become very big - both in terms of the audience, and, possibly, in terms of money. But it's all about the content. It seems to me that this can be compared with ordinary sports, which people watch with great pleasure on TV.
- That is, in 20 years we will watch the Cyber-Olympic Games?
- Quite possible. Esports is actually being born before our eyes, its rules have not yet been established. This is a completely new phenomenon at the intersection of media, streaming, advertising.
Esports is first and foremost a show. Last year, 300,000 players took part in the competition, and even more watched - tens of millions. In order for the show to be exciting for them, you need a beautiful and dynamic picture. That is it the new kind visual art - cinema, only interactive. Esports already has elements of beautiful show business: fights are commentated, there are prizes, “backup dancers”, all this is broadcast live in many languages. In show business, there must always be some kind of intrigue, and in eSports we see it to the fullest. It's just as difficult to predict who will win here as it is in normal sports: for example, in this league [in Poland], the Chinese beat the Russians. Previously, this seemed unthinkable. So esports is the same sport, only a little more youthful.
– Can eSports be considered a business?
- Let's just say that businesses are already being made on this wave. Take the same Twitch - an application that "streams" games. It's incredible: someone plays games, while others watch it, and there is already a huge audience. Amazon recently bought Twitch for $1 billion, and until recently no one had heard of this startup. This demonstrates how quickly everything in this area can grow. So in eSports, it is very likely that the same thing will happen as in other media. Content appears, views grow - and after a while, advertising appears.
Are advertisers already interested in esports?
– Are big advertisers interested in this phenomenon? For example, companies in the consumer sector?
- Not yet, but they may come, because here advertisers can be offered a very attractive type of advertising. On the regular Internet, they deal with traditional advertising, in which the audience is determined by age, place of residence, etc. But there is also behavioral advertising, which is based on how a person behaves. In games, people are engaged in just behavior - well, yes, in difficult conditions, when enemies are from all sides (laughs), but they somehow behave there: they buy something, they consider something. And all this information is accumulated by gaming companies, and on large numbers she can work very well. Using such data, advertising can be targeted much more accurately.
– For Wargaming, can the advertising model become a source of income in the future along with in-game payments and subscriptions?
- It is difficult to say yet, but we are carefully studying this topic. The same esports for us is still a marketing tool that helps to attract an audience. But everything is moving towards the fact that all this - games, competitions - will become a new media reality. She is funny, cool: these are funny rides, shooting games. People watch Minecraft for some reason - there are funny “buildings” (laughs).
In all this, of course, there is already an element of Hollywood. Normal new media reality. It is still taking its first steps, but it is developing very quickly along with the development of new technologies and mobile devices. Because people mostly watch such things on smartphones and tablets. They go in a taxi - they can watch a couple of fights.
In the zone of crisis
– Why did Wargaming decide to leave the Cyprus Exchange in 2014?
– In 2012, we decided to go to the Cyprus Stock Exchange, as we began to build the company's headquarters in Cyprus and manage it completely from there. The shares were not traded on the stock exchange. According to the rules of this exchange, this is possible. It was an offering that imposed all the same restrictions and requirements as in a classic IPO. We plunged ourselves into the abyss of this responsibility so that we would not have a chance to violate it. We have been doing this for several years. We got what we needed from this: we got a name, grew up a bit and felt more confident in this raging sea of financial instruments (laughs). We don't need it anymore.
– Do you plan to enter the stock exchange in the future?
“Well… never say never.” Now the business from the point of view of this bureaucracy is in a good condition: in the same way as it was when we were on the stock exchange. Because we learned over the course of several years to live by the rules of a public company.
– Last year, you said that Wargaming suffered from the Cyprus crisis, as a result of which the company became a shareholder of Hellenic Bank and acquired a building in Limassol. How much did the company lose in the end?
– Wargaming is the largest technology company in Cyprus, we accept Active participation in the economic and social life of the country, and therefore past crisis was not just an unpleasant moment for our corporate interests, but a problem for all employees of the company living here. We regularly pay all taxes, actively promote the reputation of Cyprus, and contribute to the development of this country, so it is not entirely true to talk about any losses. Of course, we went through certain difficulties, but, as in the case of the purchase of shares in Hellenic Bank, the crisis also opened up new opportunities for us.
Our company is one of the current shareholders in Hellenic, there are people who represent our interests there, while our participation in its work is limited. Wargaming is primarily a developer and publisher of games known all over the world, so activity in other areas is not so important for us.
The economy of Cyprus in the first quarter of 2015 grew by 1.6%, the country is gradually restoring its financial and investment attractiveness. The local authorities have very accurately and consistently carried out the reform program that was recommended by the eurozone countries and the IMF, and in the long term we look at the economic situation in the country with great optimism.
– What do you think, will the countries of the former USSR be able to become convenient for doing international business in some foreseeable future, what needs to be done there for this?
– In the post-Soviet countries, progress in creating favorable conditions for business is enormous. Wargaming unites under one roof studios from Kyiv, St. Petersburg, Minsk, as well as offices in Europe, Asia and the USA, and we can compare the conditions that we are provided different countries. In the countries of the former USSR, we feel support and interest in the company, in our initiatives to restore military equipment, popularization of history. Of course, in order to attract international companies, many more steps need to be taken to improve the business climate and introduce predictable and effective law enforcement, but in the future, any country can become a place where business will be comfortable and comfortable.
– How does Belarus feel about the fact that such a large company moved to another country and pays taxes there?
– Minsk has been and remains the heart of Wargaming, so talking about the move is not entirely true. The largest office of the company is located in Minsk, where the world hit World of Tanks is completely created: from writing code to organizing eSports competitions and promoting the project. The Minsk office is also developing and mobile version games World of Tank Blitz, where the global UX, BI, finance and legal teams are located. In general, the office completely occupies a 16-storey building and employs about 2,000 people.
– After the start of the crisis in Russia, many technology companies moved to other countries, for example, to the Baltics. Do you see this migration process from the outside, do our programmers come to you?
– As far as I know, we began to receive a little more responses to vacancies from programmers from Russia, but it is worth considering the fact that Minsk, as well as Kyiv and St. Petersburg, has a worthy reputation as a center of expertise in game development. Wargaming has become a brand in the field of HR, so our vacancies are actively interested in Russia, Europe, and the USA.
Our Minsk development team is working on World of Tanks for PC and mobile versions of the game, Kyiv is working on World of Warplanes, the studio in St. Petersburg is preparing for Exit World of Warships, a team in Chicago is working on updates for World of Tanks Xbox 360 and developing the Xbox One version of the game, while Seattle is creating a new, yet unannounced project.
Globally, the competition between companies for talent is only gaining momentum. Talents are worth their weight in gold everywhere, they dictate the conditions, and business has to adapt. Geography is not the most important factor, professionals can make their way in all regions of the world.
Chasing new emotions
- What new things await us in technology, what do you think about the general "mobilization" - the transition to smartphones and tablets?
– The main trends for the next five years are obvious: the introduction of cloud technologies, the active promotion of streaming, universal tabletization and miniaturization, virtual reality. Market mobile games will continue to grow at a tremendous pace, while mobile devices will become smaller and more powerful, and their cost will fall.
Games on mobile platforms are different. The player's attention quantum is very small, the game session can end at any time. It is important for developers to consider these conditions and adapt to them. At the same time, the industry is moving away from platform-only game development. We focus on creating exciting gaming experience regardless of the device. A good story, communication, a game universe in which the player is pleased to be, develop and receive new emotions become more important than the platform.
Very soon we will come to the point where good games become available anywhere at any time. In such a situation, the winner will be the one who gives the players a pleasant and exciting experience, an interactive world with great opportunities.
– Do you think virtual reality technology will become the next big thing? Is Wargaming planning to do something in this area?
– Virtual reality technologies have made a real breakthrough over the past three years. The prospects for using the Oculus Rift helmet in games are simply impressive, this device can radically change the gaming industry. I was amazed by the first test version of the helmet, which I experienced more than a year ago: picture, sound, emotions - you plunge into another dimension, and therefore I am looking forward to the release of the commercial version of the product. Our team is actively experimenting with the device, and we have already developed and released a special game mode for Oculus. It allows the player to take a different look at the gameplay, enjoy the effect of presence and get new sensations from tank battles. By the way, the introduction of technology turned out to be a very laborious process. We needed to rebuild the in-game menu, radically redesign the gameplay UI, and create a specific control system.
We are not tied to one platform and are constantly developing games for new devices. If the technology becomes mass, global, accessible, our games will definitely appear on it.
Thanks for the interview and good luck in the battles!
Founder and CEO gaming company Wargaming Victor Kisly gave an interview to Vedomosti about how the company's revenue was affected by the depreciation of the ruble and the euro, about eSports and doing business in the countries of the former USSR.
The CPU publishes excerpts from interviews.
Wargaming was founded in 1998. The studio has such popular games like World of Tanks, World of Warplanes and others. The organization's offices are located in Minsk, Kyiv, St. Petersburg, Seattle and other cities of the world. According to Vedomosti, the World of Tanks title alone brought the studio over $500 million in 2015.
The founder of the company, Viktor Kisly, spoke about how the crisis affects earnings, and about the development of the studio's business.
About the audience of World of Tanks and work in a crisis
According to the editors of Vedomosti, due to the crisis, World of Tanks users began to spend less time in the game, and also began to pay less. Kisly notes that residents of the countries of the former Soviet Union did not play less. The CEO of Wargaming calls the Japanese the most paying audience - according to him, there are few players from this country, but if a Japanese is fascinated by some kind of game, he plays it for a very long time.
Now Wargaming is promoting World of Tanks to new markets for itself - the team is completing a new version of the game for Xbox One, which, according to Kisly, should attract more Americans, is studying the features of the markets of Brazil, Korea, America, and so on.
Now we have a game audience distributed approximately 50:50. Half is Russia and the countries of the former USSR, the other half is the rest of the world. That is, the dynamics is still in the direction of increasing the international audience, which is logical - after all, the population of the whole world is larger than the former USSR.
The game's revenue in Russia, according to Viktor Kisly, has decreased in dollar terms - due to the depreciation of the ruble and the euro. The game has 25% of paying users - and less due to the crisis began to pay, mainly schoolchildren and students, whose purchasing power has fallen. For the rest of the audience, according to Kisly, there was no difference in payments - including because the game is built in such a way that there are no particularly expensive slots in it, and "there is nothing to spend $1,000 a month on."
One of the most expensive purchases a user can make in World of Tanks is a "golden tank" for $400, which the developers introduced into the game at the insistence of their Chinese partners.
On average, according to the CEO of the company, one paying user spends about $25 per month in the game.
About Wargaming revenue
According to Vedomosti, the analytical company Superdata estimated Wargaming's revenue in 2014 at $505 million. Viktor Kisly declined to comment on this estimate, only explaining that real revenue is indeed measured in hundreds of millions of dollars.
It is clear that due to the fall of the Russian ruble, our dollar revenue, to put it mildly, did not grow. How much she has not grown is not very important. We all still expect that the situation will improve, peace will come and everything will return to its previous course.
At the same time, the drop in revenue, according to Kisly, is associated not only with economic reasons, but also with technical ones. So, in 2014 the company released world update of Tanks with several technical errors - and the number of simultaneously playing users fell by 20% in two months.
About other studio games
Wargaming also has other games, such as World of Warplanes or World of Warships, which is currently in closed beta testing. According to Viktor Kisly, World of Warplanes is not so popular because the studio hastened to bring it to the market. World of Warship has "all the stats in closed beta are excellent, across all regions."
About the future of esports and esports competitions
Viktor Kisly sees esports tournaments in another way Development World of tanks. In April 2015, one of these competitions, organized by Wargaming, took place in Poland - and according to the company's CEO, the final was twice as many visitors as the year before.
Now it has become clear that esports is growing so fast that it can already be assumed that it will soon become very big - both in terms of the audience, and, possibly, in terms of money. But it's all about the content. It seems to me that this can be compared with ordinary sports, which people watch with great pleasure on TV.
According to Kisly, successful business projects are already beginning to appear in the wake of the popularity of eSports, such as Twitch, bought out by Amazon for $970 million. that this is such a purely Korean feature and it will not go anywhere else. ”
Kisly believes that esports could become a "new media reality", which is still at the beginning of its journey.
About conducting international business in the countries of the former USSR and work in various offices of the company
In the post-Soviet countries, progress in creating favorable conditions for business is enormous. Wargaming unites under one roof studios from Kyiv, St. Petersburg, Minsk, as well as offices in Europe, Asia and the USA, and we can compare the conditions that different countries provide us. In the countries of the former USSR, we feel support and interest in the company, in our initiatives to restore military equipment and popularize history.
According to Viktor Kisly, the main office of Wargaming was and remains in Minsk - it is there that the development of World of Tanks and World of Tanks Blitz (the mobile version of the game) is carried out. The financial and legal departments, the global UX design team, and so on are also located there. Work on World of Warplanes is carried out by the Kiev branch of the company, and on World of Warships - St. Petersburg. In Seattle, work is underway on a new, yet unannounced project.
About the distribution of mobile platforms
As Viktor Kisly notes, “general mobilization” is a trend that cannot be ignored. There are, in his opinion, other unconditional trends: the introduction of cloud technologies, the active promotion of streaming and virtual reality.
Victor Kislytold Vedomosti about life before and after creation legendary game World of Tanks, mistakes and victories in business, reasons for moving to Cyprus and plans for the future.
"Think with your head, invent, create"
Kisly, who was in 13th place in the latest ranking of the top 200 largest Belarusian businessmen, spoke about the path to the creation of Wargaming, which began with acquaintance with computers in the last grades of school, in the first year of university. "In the scientific laboratory where my father worked, there were computers - old, pot-bellied. And there were the first games in the form of managing the kingdom - primitive, I don't remember the names anymore, I remember, they were terrible and scary. But we have nostalgia for them. Then computer clubs appeared, and they already have video games: someone runs somewhere, shoots, spaceship flies somewhere. We, the boys, all without exception liked these games very much, they fascinated a whole generation! The path to a serious business began with studying at the Faculty of Physics of the Belarusian State University, which my father insisted on. "There are several things in my life that he insisted on. In the first grade, he sent me to a professional chess school - I studied there for seven years. They began to think about what to do after school. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, it was fashionable to go to Narxoz. The concept is as follows: you go to Narxoz, you get, say, an education as an accountant, and then you start your own business. And my father explained to me that there will probably be enough accountants in our country without me, and administrators too. they can’t teach it, and he literally insisted that I go to the physics department of the Belarusian State University.”
"What they studied then - mathematical analysis, tensors, thermodynamics, quantum, etc. In real life, we do not need this, but looking back, I can say that not only me, but also many people who started at Wargaming a long time ago "Physicists, chemists, radiophysicists, mathematicians by education. Education helped us a lot in terms of modeling, etc. What does physics do? It tries to give answers, what is the Universe, asks sacramental questions and builds models on this. Reality is observed, a model is made - and then, based on this model, experiments are set up, hypotheses and theories are built, conclusions are drawn.
In 1996, Victor Kisly recalls, they began to write the first game, "one might say, with a claim to take over the world." "It was created based on our board game. But back then there was no internet. Black screen, and in text form some squiggles could be entered. Everything was still in a simplified form, but we intuitively managed to discern the future in this. Our first game was online. She worked by e-mail - it was a chess game on the world map: I made my move with my soldiers, it was automatically packed, attached to the e-mail, sent to the server. The server unpacked, processed and sent you a new situation. Our practically very first game was already a small, but MMO (Massively Multiplayer Online Game, MMO is a massively multiplayer online game. - Vedomosti).
"We, five or six students, lived on a scholarship. My father helped a little with pocket money. The salary of the first programmer was $ 25 a month. We worked and earned extra money just so as not to die of hunger. But we understood that if we make a game of all time and peoples, it will take over the world and then we will get rich! But then, until the 2000s, everything was based on enthusiasm. There was no money. In 1998 - and this is an important moment - we, techies (physicists, mathematicians, computer scientists), understood that we were doing something beautiful, with internal technical logic. Then the understanding of marketing came. It turns out that there is still a market! The fact that my brother and I are starting to "cut" [the game] does not mean at all that thousands, tens of thousands of people in in the world they will cut themselves into this. They began to think: why didn’t it work, and what did we do wrong here, because how cleverly everything is conceived and implemented? It turns out that it’s too smart.”Wargaming: developer of computer games.
The shareholders are Viktor Kisly (38.5%), his father Vladimir Kisly (25.5%), Nikolay Katselapov (17%) and Ivan Mikhnevich (17%). Financial indicators (IFRS, 2012): revenue - 217.9 million euros, profit - 6.194 million euros; (IFRS, 1st half of 2013): revenue - 234 million euros, net profit - 25.6 million euros.
For 2013 the company has not yet reported.
The developers realized that there should be a link to some event, situation, so that people could understand the atmosphere, and in 1998 they began developing a game called De Bellis Antiquitatis (DBA). “This is a board game set that is very popular in narrow circles, when adult men buy tin soldiers, well, very accurately made - Romans, Macedonians - and start battles,” Kisly said.
There were 12 more games after the DBA. Kisly's "Game Stream" then teamed up with another small company, slightly smaller than us - Arise. And together with Arise they made a lot of games. "Probably the loudest is Massive Assault. It so happened that we made one of the first 3D turn-based strategies in the world. We took the sci-fi universe - it has large humanoid walking robots, futuristic helicopters, ships, tanks, plasma - and made a smart chess mathematical concept, where you could enjoy the explosions and dynamics. And at the same time, when you play against a good opponent, you had to strain both strategic thinking and tactical. It was almost impossible to win just by strategy or just tactics. We are proud of this game. With it, we entered the Western market for the first time. The game appeared on the shelves of American, German, English stores. After that, we moved to a higher league, we decided to make a real time strategy."
“Before tanks, our most famous title on the domestic territory is Operation Bagration. That is, God himself ordered. All of Belarus in the places of specific battles as part of Operation Bagration in 1944 was recreated, as far as a computer game allowed. They made a beautiful story liberation of Belarus in detail - it turned out beautifully. At the conference of game developers, we honestly took the well-deserved first prize for the best strategy. It was our first expensive award, which we still appreciate. They declared themselves as a serious player in the domestic gaming industry. For the West, we made the next game, it was already renamed Order of War by the publisher Square Enix, because no one knows Operation Bagration. There Normandy and further the liberation of France by American troops. These games were performed at a very decent competitive level."
"Bagration" and Order of War fell on the crisis years of 2008-2009. "We, as always, did not earn any money. I attribute this to the fact that the "box" as a business model has ceased to exist for small and medium-sized projects. There are several mega hits that have been developing for 20 years (Call of Duty, for example), and plus multi-platform, and we did for the PC. These franchises have a chance and earn normally. Their revenues increase due to the fact that small and medium simply dies off. And games with a budget of $ 0.5-1 million have no chance to compete. Although the chance , of course there is always, that's why we are in this gaming industry, where you always hope for this chance.But if you take the statistics, there were no chances against Call of Duty or GTA.We realized that if we sell games in a box, we will drag out a miserable existence, living from payment to payment. We had to either close or come up with something radically new. "
"I myself have about 12,000 fights, and every day, if possible, I upload and cut"
And then there is World of Tanks. "We went through all these circles of hell and realized: the box is NO. Online! We understood: there should be localization for each individual market, we wanted to cover the audience wider - in order to press the download button and download could be a Russian, and an American, and a Chinese. It is necessary We had to come up with our own universe. We decided to narrow down the choice: after all, there are quite a lot of games where the infantry runs back and forth. And then we decided - and this was the most crazy point in general: let's only tanks! Well, let's only tanks! We they didn't even suspect then how big this idea would grow! And a month ago in Russia at a specific second at 20.00 Moscow time, 1,100,000 men were sitting and cutting themselves into tanks at the same time. This is a record! We have all the [previous] records listed in the Guinness Book , are recorded, all certificates are worth it, we are proud of it, and this is very important for us."
The "Tanks" were fired far from immediately, Victor Kisly clarifies, the partners even considered the possibility of selling part of the company. "I and several of my colleagues traveled around Russia and the whole world. We thought, maybe, to find a publisher. In the same Germany, in the same America, they tried to find a publisher, but it turned out that they did not find it, and, as they say, thank God. Because that this is where the fundamental turning point in the industry itself took place.Publishers could only sell a box, but it got ridiculous: they simply did not understand how you can do business online, like this - free game? They didn’t understand that it was possible to download and pay nothing at all, because the same World of Warcraft was on a subscription basis - $ 10-20 per month. What if we never get paid? As our statistics show, 70-75% [of players] don't really spend their money. The publishers said: no-no-no, we can't go for it. Approximately such a dialogue took place everywhere with publishers.
Caused distrust and narrow tank topics. But in the end it turned out differently. “Well, we were lucky, of course, too. They might not have guessed, they might not have succeeded, they might have missed something,” the CEO of Wargaming modestly notes. “But we revealed the very idea of free-to-play. It was popular, flourished in Asia, in Russia too.So simple game mechanics- you sit at work, in a simple way you click. In Russia, this was already clear. Plus, the infrastructure of payments arrived in time. In 2003, she was not."
Victor Kisly noted that the company has a very soft monetization. 70-75% of people will never pay anything in their lives, and the owners of the company consider this to be normal."I myself have about 12,000 fights, and every day, if possible, I upload and cut. The game is really exciting."
The game is designed in such a way that you can just play and enjoy gameplay without investing real money. “Our players themselves advise their friends: listen, Vasya, buy something already, there’s no way without it at the tournament. And so on. The concept is simple: you can play as much as you like for free - if you like the game and you play it regularly. For It's important to us that you come back to the game and play a couple of days a week.The game session is one seven-minute battle.The limit is 15, but the average is seven.You can play with anyone until you're blue in the face without paying.Another thing is that when you really I liked it, you play as a platoon with your friends, with your brother, with your son."
"And by August 2010, one day it happened, the money went! The first figures were quite modest, but literally in a month or two they significantly exceeded our forecasts, and growth began. And at some point it even became "almost exponential. Advertising, traditional promotional activities, of course, we conducted. But many people did not come by advertising tracing - it can be tracked. We see: people just go, but where they come from is not clear. These are friends of friends, word of mouth, or word of mouth. People themselves draw their friends into the game - the game itself encourages this, because when you cooperate on the flank with three tanks of different types (artillery, firefly and middle peasants), the game becomes more interesting. Cooperation, well-coordinated teamwork helps a lot . Probably, that's why they drag friends. Well, the game turned out to be good," the CEO notes.
About the choice of Cyprus: everything here is honest and, most importantly, understandable
The story of how the Belarusian business ended up in Cyprus is interesting. "We needed a special place that would allow us to organize an essentially international business correctly, openly, honestly, with the payment of all required taxes and fees, so that it would be transparent, sustainable and develop further. We looked at many jurisdictions. Wargaming was the most informal education, a group of fellow enthusiasts, as is traditional in any gaming startups, who went together towards the same goal, not really thinking about stock exchanges, etc. We looked at what we have between East and West, what we have in Europe at the same time, plus a lot of Russians, What do we have similar in mentality, including the Orthodox religion and certain elements of lifestyle (coffee, dreaming about life, etc.)? This is the Republic of Cyprus. What is good for a German is good for a Russian ... Or vice versa. This is really a good jurisdiction. At the same time we had no intention of using it offshore."In Cyprus, Wargaming turned around and even managed to buy Hellenic Bank shares and real estate.
"Here you can walk in shorts, in flip-flops. Today I dressed up for our meeting. And I can dress easier for work. It's not scary here. Delicious food. one way. There is a slightly cleaner and more beautiful sea than in Limassol. Here, by the way, there are mountains, two kilometers. There is a dam. You can even ... build in the mountains. There are a lot of beautiful monasteries. There is a story. Aphrodite from foam went out there, if obliquely ... - says Victor Kisly. - It's actually normal here. Taxation is understandable and intelligible here. This is the European Union. That is, everything is tough here, in a European way. But on the other hand, everything is honest and, most importantly, if something is not clear, there is Deloitte or KPMG, who will explain and, if something is needed, they will help. situation. I'm exaggerating a little, but the atmosphere is like that."“We used to be small, we sat quietly working - 10-15 people. But now we already have about 50 people in the office, and how many people come all the time! Therefore, when we moved in here, my dad and I had separate rooms, and the rest of the people who move in are already sitting on each other's heads. And we need a lot of space. There are 2,800 people in the company around the world."
"Two hundred people work at Wargaming. About half of these people are the so-called publishers. The tank development team is about 600 people. Artists, programmers, product managers who create product value. And about half of the entire company is publishers, 1300-1400 people , they are engaged in service. For 3.5 years, we, like no one else, can say that this game is not just beautiful tanks driving around the screen, no. This is a service. Why do we have an office in Paris or San Francisco? This is not the most "cheap location and not the most tax haven. But because we tried to operate Europe from Minsk, etc. - it doesn't work. This is already a good story - a cultural phenomenon, a game. Tanks went into cartoons, into comics, etc." says Kisly.
Wargaming actively promotes the tank theme in real life as well. "We must approach reality objectively. Yes, we won everyone! But we must not slow down so that tomorrow we do not make a mistake that will change our opinion. Therefore, every day we keep our finger on the pulse, we have a scientific approach to this whole matter. We we hold a huge number of events to restore equipment and monuments from the Second World War as part of our own initiative "To Remember". Basically, we spend almost all meetings with players in museums - it's great. The museum gets income, and we get the opportunity to gather players, hold a tournament, talk about tanks, look at them, sometimes even drive somewhere. In Belarus, we restored the T-34 just by nuts, and he took part in the Victory Parade. This T-34 is legendary with the 76th gun, old.
“If a Belarusian is transported to Cyprus, his wife immediately appears and says: “But in Belarus, the school curriculum is better ...”
The CEO also has his own view on why really large companies from the industry come from Belarus. “I am inclined to think so: firstly, Belarusians as a people are a modest people — we understand that there is a balance in this world, today you are on horseback, and tomorrow a war may begin. That is, we are modest people, this is true. can be traced both in our literature and in our history. Go to Minsk and ask. That's how it is. Second: it probably happened that after the Great Patriotic War Minsk lay in ruins and a large amount of technological production was brought to Belarus, returned at that time - these are electronics, BelAZs, MAZs, color TVs and a military commissar, and so on. A lot of things were done, including optics. And my father is a man of science in Belarus. That is, Belarus at the time of the collapse of the Soviet Union and for some time after that had a huge part of the production potential: production, the technical potential of this production and, accordingly, engineering and scientific. And all this resulted in the fact that Belarus has a very strong university, technical universities, a strong school program. For example, one of the problems is that if a Belarusian is transported to Cyprus, his wife immediately appears and says: “But in Belarus the school curriculum is better. In mathematics and in other subjects. Despite the fact that the British system is here.”“Education can always be corrected if you do this, if you want to invest knowledge in a child. And then let them decide for themselves whether they need Harvards or Phystech, everyone will have their own choice. I, as a person who studied in the physical class of the school and at the Faculty of Physics ", I say that we have a wonderful base. The Belarusian team in Olympic programming is constantly included, if not in the top three, then somewhere nearby, and sometimes takes prizes. It so happened that my brother studied applied mathematics and was friends with all these Olympiads ", and many of them left to work for us. The scientific and technical potential, I believe, is great in Belarus, of course, something was lost in difficult economic times, but there is a result. There is such a word - "tolerant", we are like that. there have been many dark days in our history, by the way, for the last 3000 years here, too, Greeks, then Turks, then Richard the Lionheart have been of this type. They are also a Stoic people here. Belarus has no particular natural resources, except for the forest (and cut down the whole one - there will be no more), well, beautiful girls, so you have to think with your head. That is, you cannot stick a stick into the ground - oil does not come from there. There is some fertilizer and a small piece of oil somewhere near Mozyr."
